The Argon guy posted a topic on WiiNewz which I can only take as their official response to this matter.
Like everyone has notice MARCAN is acting like a GOD…
He is the only one having the KEY to install homebrew software on 3.4 firmware with a new Exploit. Obviously he doesn’t want to share because he likes to have the POWER.
Whenever someone decide not to share whatever notice or software or other in the homebrew scene, automatically wants to take advantages in every possible way.MARCAN pretends to obtain the COPYRIGHT on a SYSTEM HACKING. I think it is the first time this is happening in the world.
If he didn’t want his HACK to be used, he should has kept it for himself instead of rendering it to the public on the net, or MARCAN prefers to be the unique person to decide WHO could develop something on the WII HOMEBREW?ARGON2 is a MODCHIP and it is addressed to whoever need a MODCHIP, not for sure to WHO know and use the HOMEBREW resource, that are free and works without any modchip.
This is clearly described on the ARGONCHANNEL website.ARGON2 gives a FREE SERVICE to his customers, moreover it allows everyone to download, install in a fast and simple way many HOMEBREW applications.
All this advantages, is to present these fantastic applications on the market.What’s wrong about this?
We shall dimostrate to GOD MARCAN even without his help, it will be possible to DEVELOP NEW APPLICATIONS and give a FREE SERVICES to our customers; who will be VERY HAPPY using the FREE SOFTWARE. Anyway having the possibility to choose between OUR FREE SYSTEM and the HACKERCHANNEL SYSTEM for EVER.
Technical Infos:
ARGONCHANNEL recieves updates directly from our website and install them like CHANNEL inside the WII.HACKERCHANNEL doesn’t recieve any automatic updates, the SD CARD is needed and the software doesn’t use the CHANNEL format.
There are two types of systems, I cannot point out which one is better or not, they are simply two different concepts.
I hope now our position is clearer.
It is of note that he broke his own rule of posting controversy in the controversy thread by doing so.
Unfortunately for him, I am not “pretending to obtain” copyright on the Twilight Hack, as I happen to already own that. You know, because the Berne Convention of 1886 automatically grants copyright. It applies to 164 countries.
I considered doing a point-for-point reply to his nonsense, but, well, it’s all rampant nonsense, so there’s little point to that. Let’s just work from the assumption that he’s completely nuts, and if anyone thinks he had any valid points, I’ll be glad to answer them in the comments.
I did send Argon an e-mail asking them to take down the Twilight Hack from their site. Obviously, they haven’t done that, so I’ll turn to notifying their ISP next.
NEWSFLASH: Argon made a valid statement!
I suggest to invest time to “code” new application than vast your time here on ARGON2… sure is more usefull…
Indeed, coding an application is a lot more useful than ‘v‘asting time with their modchip.
And I thought they were incapable of rational thought!
25 responses so far ↓
1 http://maikelsteneker.blogspot.com/ // Jan 12, 2009 at 8:27 am
Although a big part is… well just, bull shit (if the homebrew channel can’t update automatically from the internet, how did I install them?), he does state a few things that are true.
“Whenever someone decide not to share whatever notice or software or other in the homebrew scene, automatically wants to take advantages in every possible way.”
If I’m not mistaken, only Team Twiizers can make software to install channels on Wii’s with firmware update 3.4, apart from Nintendo that is. That means that essentially you’re blocking out other homebrewers. Is that wrong? I won’t say it is, but it’s debatable. After all, if I understood correctly Team Twiizers was always about sharing the information.
“There are two types of systems, I cannot point out which one is better or not, they are simply two different concepts.”
What he says here makes sense. The Argon Channel has some interesting features, like installing homebrew from the internet without the use of an SD card. I won’t need it, but some people do. It wouldn’t be right to bash the Argon Channel just because the Homebrew Channel is already here. That said, that’s not the point you were trying to prove, so it’s a bit random I guess.
One question though: I understand that you own the copyright of the Twilight Hack and that it’s in fact illegal to host it without permission, but why do you bother contacting the ISP? Do you really care if they host the Twilight Hack?
2 tech3475 // Jan 12, 2009 at 8:37 am
He sounds like some troll on a forum arguing over why his console is the best- in other words pathetic.
Also
1. I wonder whether these “NEW” applications will just be repackaged ones for the HBC.
2. “ARGONCHANNEL recieves updates directly from our website and install them like CHANNEL inside the WII.”
Cant that just be done using the HBC and some hack- again for free and wouldn’t it be riskier than the HBC (Also where would you store e.g. ROMS….an SD card)?
3 marcan // Jan 12, 2009 at 8:56 am
@maikelsteneker:
We’re not the only ones who can install stuff on 3.4. For example, comex can do it too, because he actually cared enough to find an exploit. There is no reason for us to disclose the details for the 3.4 exploit, because we’re already giving you a way of running software, and we don’t want to help Nintendo fix t (or idiots like Argon use it for that matter). Releasing the details of the 3.4 hack would just get it fixed faster and it’d help some undesirable people (VC pirates, backup loader guys, Argon) more than it would help homebrew (you can, after all, already run homebrew fine).
The reason why we’re bashing the Argonchannel is because it sucks in its own right – they’re installing ripped off channels, require you to use their infrastructure, and even the notion of installing channels is questionable when you can just load stuff from an SD card. A large part of the stuff they host requires an SD card anyway, which makes the “no SD required” point moot. If you want to install homebrew from the internet, just get the Homebrew Browser.
We do care about them hosting the Twilight Hack because they’re a modchip company and they’re hosting it alongside illegal crap. So yes, I am contacting their ISP. They’re no better than those sites that are trying to sell the Twilight Hack and HBC.
4 bAiLLi // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:02 am
Epic fail,
that must be more or less the worst post Argon could have made as a response. Full of false information and no word about GPL and other licence violations…
BTW Nice grammar and spelling for “a company”, Argon *thumbsup*…
5 tona // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:09 am
Hosting those “channels” is likely breaking both hombrewers’ copyrights and Nintendo’s (banners). I don’t really understand how they thought this was a good idea.
6 jarsonic // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:34 am
tona: That’s just it. They *don’t* think. They just want to dupe people out of money, plain and simple, and they are grasping at straws for ways to attempt to justify it to people who call them out.
7 kmeisthax // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:38 am
Oh god the number of failures in that Argon2 post makes me want to write a long, excruciatingly well-researched rebuttal and sign it “Summer Glau”.
(see http://xkcd.com/406/)
8 UnFlammable // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:39 am
Argon-tard’s writing style reminds me of Gene Ray: http://www.timecube.com
9 L // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:59 am
isn’t it more likely for someone to brick their wii with a modchip than the homebrew channel?
10 jpx92681 // Jan 12, 2009 at 11:07 am
Marcan rocks and everybody nows that.Its easy some ppl always are going to try to take advantage (talking about money..) from something that is intended to be free, like in this case.I dont know what is the deal with using a sd card and the zelda hack, In fact, is the greatest thing invented ever for the wii. Is obviously cheaper that the dammed chip and to be suscribed to a crappy server identifying you and all the privacy stuff…. jus keep on working on the HBC and all the possibilities around. Greetings from SouthAmerica!
11 HCK // Jan 12, 2009 at 12:46 pm
WOW they suck for real. They’ re crapping with illegal stuff and trying to make you, marcan, to look like some kind of tyrant, when everyone with a bit of brain understands why are you team twiizers keeping some exploits in the dark.
Whoever follows Argon’ s trolling (if someone does even care about) is a dumbass with no clue.
Keep Up The Awesome Job Team Twiizers!
12 GeeGee // Jan 12, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Argon is just pathetic. Even the channel banners are stolen. There “argon channel” sound like it is a Homebrew Browser that installs wads – making it rather useless.
The broken english “Legal Warning” from their site claims that “Over the 60% of WII users do not have a computer…” therefore their product is needed. Who would own a modded Wii and not a computer?!
I cringe at the thought of the upcoming “ArgonX Channel” which is coming soon. I’m sure it will be 100 times more eXtereme then the current one. LOL.
13 henke37 // Jan 12, 2009 at 2:21 pm
They really should start using best practices when making public statements, let MS Word do a spelling and grammar check on the text before sending.
14 qiantpune // Jan 12, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“Like everyone has notice MARCAN is acting like a GOD…”
Yes. All Hail Lord Marcan and the Righteous Members of Team Twiizlers! They that bringeth life to the twilight hack and not chargeth a dime for it.
“If he didn’t want his HACK to be used, he should has kept it for himself instead of rendering it to the public on the net..”
Yes, again. Lord Marcan beith a gracious god.
“We shall dimostrate to GOD MARCAN even without his help, it will be possible to DEVELOP NEW APPLICATIONS and give a FREE SERVICES to our customers; who will be VERY HAPPY using the FREE SOFTWARE.”
Well, he’s speaking in broken ingrish, so I think this is what he meant to say,
“We shall continue to steal from GOD MARCAN. Even without his help, it will be possible to steal NEW APPLICATIONS and charge money for a FREELY AVAILABLE SERVICES to our customers, who would have been VERY HAPPY using the FREE SOFTWARE, had it been provided in its original state and they had not paid for it.”
15 bootlegger // Jan 12, 2009 at 3:50 pm
@GeeGee
If the over 60% of Wii owners dont own a PC then how are these 60% going to find out about the chip in the first place, buy it online, or even read the PDF instruction on how to fit the chip. Also if they dont own a computer do they even think this 60% have the intelligence to pull apart a Wii and Fit a Mod chip in the first place!!!
Hopefully when nintendo get round to blocking the twilight hack again they will also block all other invalid installed WADs. Hoping Marcan will come out with another hack to get around this and if so write some code into the new version of the hack that will not install if argon detected! that’ll f*#k em… maybe all users will ask for a refund then……heres hoping.
16 xiaNaix // Jan 12, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Please note that I did not see the thread Argon2 posted on WiiNewz until it was already three pages long and you guys had responded here. Had I seen it earlier, it would have been immediately deleted. It was out of line for him to post that and I apologize for not being on the ball.
For the people here who do not already know (I think Marcan and Bushing already do) I do not endorse or condone what was done with Argon2 but, like other modchips, my forum acts as a communication bridge. Unlike similar forums, I try to get both the guys behind the scenes and the consumers togther to provide better support for the end-user. Sometimes, as in this case, oil and water don’t mix. The best thing you can do is not drink it.
17 Maximilianop // Jan 12, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Just beautiful “MARCAN pretends to obtain the COPYRIGHT on a SYSTEM HACKING. I think it is the first time this is happening in the world.”
AFAIK Action Replay, Game-Genie, Gameshark, Codebreaker, Xplorer, GameHunter, Xploder64, and others; are all COPYRIGHTED hardware and software for SYSTEM AND SOFTWARE HACKING!!!
18 HyperHacker // Jan 12, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Yeah, you guys are playing God by keeping one of the many exploits you’ve found private. How dare you. You should give it out for free like everything else so Nintendo can fix the exploits BootMii uses before it’s even released. For shame.
Wait, what?
19 wiisixtyfour // Jan 12, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Why do they keep calling it “HACKERCHANNEL”?
“ARGON2 COST = D2PRO = SAME PRICE
ARGON2 HAS ARGONCHANNEL FOR FREE
SO WE DON’T SELL NOTHING HERE”
They don’t sell nothing they sell crap
“People that USE HACKERCHANNEL sure don’t buy a MODCHIP… or better WHO WANT TO PLAY “HOMEBREW” SURE FIND ON THE NET ALL WHAT NEED TO DO THAT FOR FREE.”
What?
“We want only to give a SERVICE to our customers that aren’t SUPER CODER or HACKER like the HACKMII comunity… or simple haven’t time to spend in searching new applications…”
Yeah, ’cause those are the people who buy modchips… 😉
20 Brainy142 // Jan 12, 2009 at 7:58 pm
What a load of crap, Marcan wrote it and its his choice PERIOD. GPL! GPL! GPL! I solute you Marcan for actually standing up for yourself, so many sites don’t give about stealing Marcan kick his ass for the community, Nintendo, and yourself.
The Brandorgian empire declares war.
21 dmanwell.blogspot.com/ // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:08 pm
marcan,
Don’t mean to say nay like a naysayer, but how exactly do you own the copyright to the Twilight Hack?
Automatic ownership versus registration is not the issue. Nintendo owns the copyright to Twilight Princess, and the Twilight Hack is probably an unauthorized derivative use.
Just saying.
22 JohnH // Jan 13, 2009 at 2:09 am
Well, it is a complicated issue.
Legally, of course, it is not complicated. marcan and Team Twiizer wrote the code, so they own the copyright to it. That much is open and shut. And Argon is clearly in the wrong. Legally.
What Argon is trying to do is use the secrecy around the new exploit to try to divide the community and increase their sales. Since you guys came out strongly against his product, then it’s in his best interest, from a business standpoint, to try to discount your opinions. (Unfortunately, many people believe moral issues often don’t even enter into it when it comes to business.)
However, he does have a point, kind of. He states it hyperbolically to try to sway readers to his side, but there is a core of truth there. There is a fundamental aspect of the 3.4 HBC installation path that is intentionally mysterious, and geek-types (which are most of us) tend not to sit well with official mysteries. It is understood completely why the details of the hack are kept secret, to make it harder for Nintendo to close the security hole. But there is a fundamental disconnect here; if the exploit details are kept secret, then there will always be a percentage of users who will be distrustful. It could be argued, in fact, that an intelligent person -should- be wary of trusting his console to a stranger.
Unfortunately, there is no easy remedy for this conflict. It’s just one of those things that the homebrew scene will have to live with, it seems.
23 marcan // Jan 13, 2009 at 7:25 am
@JohnH:
And thus we come full circle: would you trust your console to Nintendo? If you wouldn’t have done so in the first place (updated to 3.4), you wouldn’t have to worry about the HBC installer trick (in fact, then entire exploit is bypassed if running a vulnerable IOS).
So yes, people will have to trust us when we release undocumented exploits – that’s just how things work at the moment. But, well, trusting Nintendo is what caused this need in the first place, so it’s hardly something new 🙂
@dmanwell:
The Twilight Hack is based on a Twilight Princess gamesave. It has nothing to do with the game itself. The gamesave is considered a product created by the use of the software (Twilight Princess), so it is copyrighted by the player (that is, us), much like a .doc created by Word is copyrighted by the user, not Microsoft. We are using our own gamesave banners (the ones that say “Twilight Hack”) because the original banner art (which is essentially separate from the gamesave and logically independent) is no doubt copyrighted by Nintendo.
The gamesave is basically a vanilla TP gamesave with exploit code injected and an SD DOL/ELF added to it. Both the exploit payload and the DOL/ELF loader are entirely original code.
24 Alexandre_Lema // Jan 13, 2009 at 11:41 am
Marcan, if they use IOS16 and you have a “channel” with Nintendo (a clunky one, but it exists), why don’t you simply tell them Argon is using their code without permission and let their lawyers do the dirty work?
25 pc486 // Jan 14, 2009 at 12:49 am
IANAL, but de facto ownership of copyright doesn’t necessarily mean complaints can be filed or losses can be assessed. For example, if the work was done in the United States and a case is filed in a US court, the copyright *MUST* be registered by the US Copyright Office. Failure to register can result in all kinds of legal headache.
I’m sure there are other interesting copyright issues here too. Like marcan pointed out, data created by programs via the user is generally the copyright of the user, not the maker of the program. Then again, copyright rights are often released via EULAs and other legal means. Perhaps a court would take the opinion that gamesaves are snapshots of internal program state and are not user data, and as such retain copyright of the program makers. That would make the Twilight hack be a derivative work, which has even more copyright ramifications!
Maybe it’s time to call a real lawyer? 😛
You must log in to post a comment.